That’s all Folks!

It was real, it was fun and it was real fun!  We’ve moved to our own sites (which we actually had in addition to the J & P show), so there will be no more postings from this blog.  At least I don’t think so.

If you want to find us separately, Jen is at http://ohharumph.blogspot.com/   “Was That My Outside Voice?”  It’s a personal site with lots of great writing, views and opinions.

My blog is at http://paigesprattle.blogspot.com/ “Paige’s Prattle”.  My posts are all over the map and will likely offend most readers at one point or another.

God Bless you and keep you and happy blog reading!

Ooh Hell is a Place On Earth...(Sung Like Belinda Carlisle)

Paige and I have both finished reading "Love Wins" by Rob Bell. Here are our (sight unseen to each other) reviews.

PAIGE'S TAKE

Rob Bell would like his readers to believe that Heaven is for everyone and that no one goes to Hell. He’d also like those same readers to believe that Heaven will be here on our present earth. That’s a lovely and generous belief, but wholly unscriptural.

If there is no judgment day and no Hell; then what exactly is a Christian to strive for? Why do we set ourselves apart from others in our life, our practices, and our actions? If no one goes to hell, then why a judgment for any one at all? If the Heaven that we look forward to is based here on this imperfect, desecrated, crumbling earth, why are there verses about a New Heaven and a New Earth?
For the record, Rob Bell uses this belief of Heaven on Earth as his basis for ecology and earth-friendly practices. I’m not against being eco-minded, or in being good stewards of our earth. There’s no reason to trash the place we currently live in; but to base our stewardship on the (faulty) promise that this will be our new Heaven is, at best, limiting God. At its worst, it’s misleading and not scriptural.
I wanted to hate this book with its touchy-feely, God is Love and everyone is welcome forever message. It’s even worse than that as I read the preface. JUST THE PREFACE,

According to this book, God is so loving that he isn’t about tough love or curfews, rules, laws, guidelines or morals. God is Love and it doesn’t matter if you believe in his Love or not – you’ll always find room at the inn. Even after you’ve died, thrown away all your chances, denied his power and strength in your physical body and earthly life. Because a God that is so loving couldn’t possibly draw a line in the sand and expect people to make a choice.

Page 2 “Does God punish people for thousands of years with infinite, eternal torment for things they did in their few finite years of life?”

Yes, Mr. Bell, he does and he will. Bible verse after verse shows that God’s glory, power and creation are fully evident in everything we see and have. People that refuse to see this evidence have made the choice to refuse the truth. I will admit I still have questions about people who have not heard the gospel, but there is evidence that a higher being/power exists.

Atheists and Agnostics constantly deny the existence of God or a higher power. They refuse to acknowledge the creator, the power of God. This is a choice that God gives them; He loves us enough to let us make our own choices, but is saddened at the loss of just one from his kingdom.

Another point that disturbs me about the book is that he picks the gospel apart, but doesn’t see the picture as a whole. Grace is no good if it’s not a gift. It’s not good news if it’s not accepted. And if the gift of grace isn’t accepted voluntarily, God certainly isn’t going to force it down our throats.

Let me digress just a moment to say that throughout this book, Mr. Bell (or his editor) does not capitalize the pronouns referring to God. If this doesn’t bother you, I’d like you to think about it the next time someone doesn’t capitalize “Mr.” or “Mrs.” or your name.

I could go on and one, point by point to dissect Mr. Bell’s theology; but this would be a very long “review”. If you’d like a more detailed analysis of the book, you can check out my blog where I’ll put the long drawn out opinion of my review.
Briefly, let me say this: Mr. Bell’s theology (and the theology of others like him) is scripturally in error and factually incorrect. He points out everything that is true and false about Christianity, Grace, hope, love, God and Jesus, including Heaven and Hell and then sugars it up to make it more palatable to a world that doesn’t want to hear no. Because he’s educated and can translate Greek and Hebrew, he sounds candid and comes across to his readers as knowledgeable. He is knowledgeable, but incorrect. Look at it this way, you can know where the Eiffel Tower is and let people know all the details you can find about it; but unless you’ve actually driven there and visited the Tower itself, you would likely lead a lot of people astray with your opinions and beliefs based on the facts that you use.

I admit I skimmed through the last 5 chapters of the book because it was confusing, circular and just plain misleading.

I’m not sure how Mr. Bell can factually and truly believe in a God that gave us his Bible, but doesn’t expect us to read, absorb and live according to that same Bible.
My prayers are for Mr. Bell and the host of people he has and will lead astray because I believe he will be held to a higher standard of accountability for his misinformation than would a person who followed his teachings.
In the end, we have been given the love and grace and gift of God, through the death and resurrection of His son, Jesus. What we work for on this earth is the salvation of everyone who accepts that gift; so that we may spend eternity with them and our Lord in the new heaven that is designed for us, his heavenly children. We are joint-heirs with Jesus in the riches and glory that wait for us in that Heaven.

JEN'S TAKE

So I just finished reading this Rob Bell book. Heard of it? If not, you were either raptured yesterday or have been living under a rock. The book in question is “Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived.”

Oh. Well that seems simple.

So anyway, for you who are raptured and/or living under a rock, Rob Bell is one of these newfangled progressive preachers who don’t really believe in things like sin, or repentance, or heaven. Or, apparently, hell. So in other words Bell preaches the Gospel without actually touching on, well, the Gospel.

Let me start by saying that I know Paige took pages and pages of notes while reading and so I’m sure her review will be much more in-depth than mine. I didn’t take notes except for in my head, and we all know how that turns out most of the time.

But anyway.

Bell’s premise is simple, if flawed. He believes, if I understand him correctly, that Jesus will extend salvation—and entrance into heaven--to everyone upon death. And if we don’t accept Him prior to our death, we’ll get another chance, after we’re dead. And if we don’t accept Him then, we’ll get another chance. And another. And another. Until Jesus simply just lets us in, because that’s really all He wants.

Well. It sounds fantastic, but I’m left wondering something. If Jesus saves us all, in the end, anyway, doesn’t sort of remove the whole free-will aspect from it? And if we don’t make the CHOICE to accept or reject Jesus, does it even mean anything?

So Bell contends that since Jesus lets everyone into heaven, there’s really no need for anything called “hell.” (Interesting, then, that in the NT Jesus talks about hell more than He talks about anything else. He must have had quite the imagination.) And while it’s true that one cannot earn one’s way into heaven, because it is by faith and faith alone, this passage made me almost not continue with the book:

Think about the single mom, trying to raise kids, work multiple jobs, and wrangle child support out of the kids’ father, who used to beat her. She’s faithful, true, and utterly devoted to her children…She gets a few hours of sleep and then repeats the cycle of cooking work, laundry, bills, more work, until she falls asleep into bed late at night, exhausted. With what she has been given she has been faithful…She never gives up…She is kind and loving even when she’s exhausted.

With all due respect to single moms, this passage made me ill, because of Bell’s implication that, well, the poor little single mom HAS to go to heaven, because her life has been “hell.”

WHAT?

If someone, like Bell, doesn’t believe in hell, but believes in “salvation”…WHAT are those receiving salvation saved FROM?

It literally makes no sense.

Well, it does to Rob Bell. Because, you see, to “Pastor” Bell, hell is not eternal torment, or separation from God; no, hell is life on earth. That’s essentially what he’s saying. He’s saying we’re all living in one form of hell or another here on earth, so naturally when we die the only alternative is heaven, because we’ve already seen hell.

I ask again…what, then, is the purpose of salvation?

I don’t know. Most of this book just left me…befuddled. Not only does he seem to have a bone to pick with Paul (you know, Paul, the apostle, who wrote most of the epistles in the NT…that Paul) because he severely misunderstands his intent while picking apart the majority of what he’s written. Uh, Mr. Bell? It’s THE BIBLE. It is YOUR JOB to preach it. If you don’t like what it says, I suggest you find a new job. And stat.

But I think the biggest thing that bothers me is, well, the title. “Love Wins.” Essentially he’s implying that a LOVING God doesn’t send people to hell, that a LOVING God doesn’t “judge” people, that a LOVING God wouldn’t “force” someone to worship Him.

Did Mr. Bell have a father? Does he understand parental love? That’s like God’s love, how I see it. My father loved me, but his JOB as my father was to make rules, correct me when I went astray, make rules, tell me “As long as you live under my roof”, make rules…get the idea? As a young child, when I messed up—and I did, because, really, I thought the rules were stupid—I’d get spanked. Or I’d get my mouth washed out with soap. According to Mr. Bell (I won’t call him “Pastor” Bell because he DOESN’T PREACH THE GOSPEL), my father didn’t love me. Because he punished me. So in my house, love didn’t win. Hmm. Could’ve fooled me.

So when Bell says “Love wins,” what he means is that there can’t POSSIBLY be a hell. Because God, who LOVES us, wouldn’t send us to hell.

Newsflash, Bell: God doesn’t send anyone to hell. We send ourselves.

And it saddens God when we do.

So I’d say love DOES win, in the end.

We're Going to Talk About WHAT? Are We Still Friends?

This episode is about finances. You've been warned.

JEN'S TAKE

If there is one thing Paige and I cannot discuss without fighting, it’s finances. So much so that she has come up with a mantra for herself: “I will not discuss finances with Jen, I will not discuss finances with Jen, I will not…” You get the idea. For this JNP episode, though, we’ve (recklessly) abandoned that mantra.

This could be very bad.

I like to think I have a pretty good grip on my family’s finances. I haven’t always, though. I’ll give you a brief history/synopsis of us before getting to “the point”.

When we were first married (10 and a half years ago) and both making good money, we spent like crazy, and then spent some more. When we lost my income, we felt a huge blow to the lifestyle to which we had become accustomed. The summer after our first child was born we had to count change to buy groceries one week. That’s when we realized we were living beyond our means and we needed to change that. We started cutting out nonessentials like cable (I know, shocking, but you don’t need it), cell phones (we use prepaid now), foo-foo coffees (drip coffee plus milk and sugar is just fine), and on and on and on. Making cuts, we were able to slowly pull ourselves out of the hole and barely break even each month.

Then I got pregnant.

Then the baby was critically ill and racking up medical bills that we could not pay.

Then we got more serious. We sold our new-ish car, which was costing us a whopping $400 a month and bought a car that cost a total of $400. (It ran for three years by the way, and last I saw it—about a year ago—it was still running.) We started shopping at the “value” grocery store. My husband took on a second job to fund those medical bills. (Shortly after he did, we received a charity donation that covered the open heart surgery and all of our son’s meds…I often think that had we not been proactive in taking care of our finances, we would not have been blessed in that regard. But I digress.)

Our son got healthy, we were mostly out of debt (with some credit card usage and student loan payoff still in there) and I got pregnant again. Three kids? How would we afford THREE kids? (Of course now I think if you can afford one you can afford a zillion, but that’s neither here nor there.) Surprisingly, we did well enough. I breastfed our daughter, which saved a ton of money her first year. We used our remaining credit card “for emergencies” and didn’t rack up a ton of debt on it. We were careful.

Then we found Dave Ramsey.

If you haven’t heard of him, I’m not going to bother to link you to him or anything; you must be living under a very large rock. We started applying his debt free principles in April of 2009 (the aforementioned third and last child was 15 months old at the time) and became debt free (except for our home mortgage) in April of 2010, when we paid off the last of my ten year old student loan (thanks, Grandma). Because of this, we often find ourselves recommending and lauding Dave Ramsey to our friends, parents, and anyone who will (or won’t) listen.

But I’m going to let you (and Paige) in on a secret. I don’t agree with everything Dave Ramsey says. In fact, a good portion of it, I disagree with.

I agree with his principles for getting out of debt, because they’re tried, and true, and if one is willing to invest the necessary discipline, one can get out of debt fairly quickly. But that is where the Ramsey train stops in my brain.

See, this has been something I’ve been convicted about for a while and, to be honest, it’s hard to be convicted about something if your spouse isn’t on the same page. And mine isn’t. But I digress.

I’ll try to make this as simple to understand (as in, from my point of view) as possible. Getting out of debt is a great idea, and easy if you’re willing to take an honest look at yourself. I think people don’t think that society sets us up to live debt free, and those people would be right, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for it. I also think, however, that the rest of Ramsey’s principles lend themselves to a selfish and hoarding mentality as far as saving (as in, putting in the bank) money goes. And I don’t think that’s what God intends. (I bring that up because it’s well known that Ramsey is a Christian and bases his principles on that.)

God tells us to store up our treasures in heaven, not on Earth, and for good reason. IT’S NOT OURS. Even the money that we don’t spend, that we “put away for a rainy day”…it’s all His. Every last cent. And I don’t hoarding it makes him happy. I’ll go one step further and say that hoarding money ala Dave Ramsey in an attempt to “be prepared for the future” is removing God from the picture almost completely. We’re putting the responsibility for our unknown future in OUR hands, not His.

This is something my husband and I argue about. A lot. He has really jumped on the “saving” part of Ramsey’s plan, moreso than on the “get out of debt” part. We don’t “allow” ourselves any spending money because we “can’t afford to spend until we’ve saved enough.”

Well.

What is enough? I mean, is there a magic number? At how many thousands of dollars will we be able to stop, take a look around, and say “Ok, Lord. I guess You can be in control from here.”

Yeah, no.

Maybe I should bottom line this for you.

Getting out of debt is a fantastic idea. Dave Ramsey’s method works if you’re willing to work it (most people aren’t). Saving for a rainy day is an extraordinary idea, but I don’t think God wants us to save for the Great Flood of Noah. He wants us to realize that He is the provider; that He gives and takes away; that it’s all His and He can take every last cent away no matter how “prepared” we are.

I, in fact, have a theory, that the more we hoard (this is different than saving and has to do with attitude involved, in my opinion), the worse off financially we’ll be, and I’ll back that up with a story from my own life. My husband, as I mentioned before, has two jobs. He doesn’t need two jobs, anymore. We have a decent savings and no debt except our home, which is minimal. But he works his second job, which takes him away from us more often than he is home, because he doesn’t feel there’s “enough” in savings. I beg to differ and I think God does too. And my point (I’ll get there) is wrapped up in this: In the last two years, since he’s been working so much without regard to family “needs”, every.single.major.appliance and every.single.system in our house has failed and needed repaired or replaced. I personally think God’s trying to get his attention. I often wonder how loud He’ll need to yell.

Clearly, louder than He’s yelling now.

At any rate…I am passionate about finances, and I feel there’s no excuse why someone can’t cut nonessentials (which are not as relative as some people think they are) and make a solid attempt to live within one’s means. I think it’s do-able, but people don’t want to do it. But I feel that excessively saving money removes God from His place at the head of our lives. And I feel that’s where Dave Ramsey goes very, very wrong.

PAIGE'S TAKE

Jen wants this blog post to be about finances. Crud. Of all the things we disagree about – and there are a few; this is the one that we most often fight about publically and privately. She’s really good at living within her means; me not so much. She’s not afraid of math and finances and calculations; the word budget throws me into a cold sweat. She does the “Dave Ramsey Plan”; I think the guy’s not really clued into reality.

So, because we’re friends and we repeatedly agree not to argue about it; and because she attempts to patiently answer my over-thought questions; I’ve agreed to write about finances for this post. Crud.

I don’t know how to actually live within my means. I try and try and try. And try. And, most months we break about even. We have no savings to speak of; a couple of IRA’s, a bit of retirement from Russ’ previous job and whatever social security will be available when one or both of us retire. We have no college plan for our kids – the two older girls put themselves (or are currently attending) through college. Our house is mortgaged; we have a HELOC and a small savings account for both boys. We have one credit card, which I use to cover the ‘shortfalls’ like the unexpected auto repair (at this point Jen is hyperventilating). We have life insurance through Russ’ work which would pay off the mortgage if he died, but nothing on me.

For Christmas, Jen gave me two Dave Ramsey books – no I haven’t had a chance to read them yet – but I will. I balance our checkbook on Quicken and download our transactions two or three times a week from our bank. I pay the bills and file the taxes and play bad-cop when money is being spent.

Here’s what I know:

· We tithe 10% of our income every month through actual tithing, donations, charity or volunteer work. If I count actual volunteer hours, it’s closer to 25%.

· Credit cards are bad (for us) because it gives the illusion that we have more money than we do. Until it’s time to pay the cards/invoices/bills and then it’s a never-ending battle.

· I’m not sure we’ve ever recovered from his lay-off almost 12 years ago. He was unemployed for almost a year and under-employed for another year or so. We lived on credit during that time, borrowed some from his parents and mine and somehow didn’t lose cars (paid-for) or the house (mortgage first).

· The cycle that we’re in now is we try to save; but something unexpected always comes up which completely throws off the plan. Recently it’s been two vet visits (Raisins and jumping off the kennel which required x-rays); a ‘clock’ spring in one of the cars (not that makes the clock work, but that makes the airbag work); and well, the taxes we knew we’d have to pay (and did) on money we took out of the IRA’s I had from my inheritance from my mom.

· We’re down to one credit card (and the HELOC). I’m cutting back on expenses that we can; but I get tired of always being the one that says no.

· Children are expensive; and as hard as I try, I can’t seem to get a handle on when expenses will come due. The shoes I bought last month are too small and I purchased them too-big so that he’d have some growing room. There’s $40 or so; sometimes less if we can find them at Value Village or I don’t need to buy new football or baseball cleats too.

· I look at prices for items in the store; but to be honest; if I need it I’m going to buy it. I did say need – this doesn’t apply to the BMW I “WANT” or the fencing that would be nice, but we can live without a few more months.

· I hate shopping for groceries, clothing, pretty much anything except books or music. The thought of going to several stores to get the best deal exhausts me and drains my time and gas.

· I have all these ideas on ways to cut back, but so far, only one of us agrees on them and I can’t get past the disobedience it would involve forcing my hand.

So, here we sit no retirement to speak of, four great kids, two grandkids, a dog, two cats and a bearded dragon. We’ll work until we’re not able to anymore and hopefully be raptured before it’s necessary to put us in a home.

But I’m not holding out much hope there will be an inheritance for our kids, other than a lot of bills and memories.

Crud.