Debate This!

This week our subject is debate...

Jen's take:

Recently I started a fan page for myself on Facebook.  (Ok, so it's a debate page, but as I'm a big fan of my debates and discussions and deep thoughts, I thought it appropriate.)  Unfortunately, my reasoning was not just me being a big fan of myself.  My debates and discussions get heated because people take things personally, so I decided to take a step back and make a separate page to avoid some of that heat. 

        I very clearly posted the rules for debating on the sidebar on my page (which seems to have conveniently disappeared, but I digress).  I very clearly stated that name calling by anyone to anyone was not and never would be appropriate.  It didn't take long before some poor soul decided my conservative views were bigoted, and called me a bigot.  It brought me no sorrow to select the box next to her name that said "ban permanently."

        But that got me thinking. What, exactly, IS a debate?  My personal Facebook page, up until now, has been known as a place wherein deep discussions/debates take place on a daily basis.  In the past, though, I have angered people by, in their words, "pressing" the issue after they have spoken their piece. This seems odd, to me.  I always have thought the point of a debate was to win.  As in, you say your side, I say my side, and someone presents the best evidence/statistics/facts/reasoning and wins.  Is that not what a debate is? Perhaps I'm clueless in this regard.  Enlighten me, if so.

        In any case, here is how I debate and/or discuss, on my debate/discussion page:

        I post a topic, link, or question that I find interesting.  Some of these are suggested to me by my friends; some are based on conversations I've seen on other pages or message boards; some are just things that I think people will find controversial (although, admittedly, people seem to find controversy in areas I never thought possible).  When the topic, link, or discussion is posted, it's open season on whatever it is.  Have at it. Argue, fight, present your side, present your facts, do whatever it takes.  But do NOT call me, or anyone else, a bigot, a hater, a racist, or any other host of names. That's not fair fighting.  But know this: if you present your side, I will then continue presenting my side.  That's how it *works*.  That's what a debate or a discussion is.  If I "press the issue", this does not make me "always having to be right" or any such thing.  It's called a rebuttal.  Look up the word, if you'd like.

        I've also, often, been accused of "always thinking my opinion is the right one".  Um, duh? Does anyone really espouse an opinion about something that they *don't* believe to be true? What would be the point of that? I'm asking, honestly. (I believe this was referred to as "outlandish bullshit" by one of my friends/readers, and "egocentrism" by someone else.)  Though I CAN successfully argue "the other side" of something I feel strongly about, I don't unless I'm telling you.  Repeat: I will flat out tell you if I'm arguing a side I don't agree with.  Anything else…well, what you see is what you get.  For shame!  I am egocentric enough to actually believe that the opinions I hold are correct.  Really, this flabbergasts me.

        So, really, I have one rule for my debates/discussions: no. name. calling.  It's very simple.  Name calling is a pathetic way to argue.  If you are frustrated with the person's argument, find another way to get your point across. Don't just assume their argument is judgemental, bigoted, ignorant, or full of hate. 

        Perhaps they just believe differently than you do. Last I checked, that was not a crime.

Paige's Take:

Debate or attack?

(Borrowed from the comments guidelines of PajamasMedia.com)

1. Avoid profanities or foul language unless it is contained in a necessary quote or is relevant to the comment.

2. Stay on topic. 

3. Disagree, but avoid ad hominem attacks.

4. Threats are treated seriously and reported to law enforcement

5. Spam and advertising are not permitted in the comments area.

And, a brief definition (dictionary.com):

ad ho·mi·nem

–adjective

1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.

2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

I have been accused of not being willing to accept debate on topics.  I have been charged with being hateful, fearful, and ignorant, a bigot, extremist and a list of other names.   The difference between a bar fight and a debate is how the subjects are discussed (and the proper usage of the beer bottle as a weapon).  What gets it all in a twist is that people don’t know or remember how to debate. 

I did not take debate in High School or college; I was however in speech classes and had to give a few extemporaneous (spontaneous) speeches.  I think I’m fairly good at debating topics (and have been told so by a few people, as well as my own opinion) and feel that when debating I attempt to be fair, avoid name-calling and stay on subject.  However, that is not the case with most debates I have been involved in lately. 

“Debate” is defined (Wikipedia) as a ‘formal method of interactive and representational argument’.  As with most speaking styles, there are rules or guidelines that should be followed to avoid intimidation.  Debate is not conversion, nor is it bullying the other person(s) into retreating or agreement.  Debate is a way to present a factual and evidential argument for or against a specific subject. 

Debate should be about two (or more) adults discussing a subject – not necessarily with the intent of converting the other – with opinions, evidence and facts.  Emotions are not involved, nor appreciated.  Name-calling (ad-hominem attacks) is in bad form and changes the debate into a contest (read: “pissing match”).

Debate is not bashing the other person with personal comments (or attacks), insulting them in order to change the subject or create hurt feelings.  Opinion is an important aspect of a debate; again, the point is not to necessarily change the other person’s opinion.  There is a fair exchange of ideas, information, facts, exhibits and evidence.  Although the proof used may appear biased to the outlook of one debater; a good debate should include corroboration as well as challenges to the opinion of the others involved.

For instance, if we are debating that the most efficient cars on the road are the Toyota Prius; the persons that believe this to be true could offer up EPA statistics and other studies that have been done to prove the point.  However, they could also present the facts that even though the cars are more fuel efficient, the cost to purchase new, keep repaired and (in some cases) charged might override the actual efficiency.  It is also not a car to drag the soccer team in, or your trailer or boat behind.  Some might find the negative attention disloyal to the cause; however in the search for unbiased opinion, the information would be ultimately correct in both instances.

On the other hand the owner of an older, paid-for SUV maintains the need for the vehicle because of lifestyle and employment.  With adequate seating and cargo room, the vehicle is more appropriately suited for hauling loads of children, groceries, camping gear or vacation travel (not to mention towing a boat or a trailer).  The day-to-day use of the vehicle requires that the tank be filled only once each month (instead of weekly), and maintenance is minimal if kept up.  Receipts for fuel and maintenance, matched against the safety record of the vehicle (from the EPA or other institution), would satisfy the evidence portion of the question. 

To argue the point that because one owner drives a “gas-guzzling SUV, they must care less about the environment and must therefore be a hateful and inconsiderate bigot” is merely mud-slinging and not addressing the point of the discussion; which is (might I remind you) efficiency.

Neither party is right or wrong in their beliefs that their vehicle is the safest and most efficient vehicle for their lifestyle.  The Prius owner has a lifestyle that doesn’t demand a large amount of space; probably commutes to work at a distance and takes few camping trips or drives that require the room of a larger SUV.  This does not make the Prius owner a better human being, or a more careful steward of the planet.  It also doesn’t make the Suburban owner a “gun-toting, extremist militia member”.

Life isn’t Jr. High and not every battle needs to be fought to win.  Sometimes there is more than one way to peel an orange; and they might just both be right.  Quit with the useless personal attacks and get on to making a stand for your opinions.  You don’t have to WIN to be correct.

Episode 4: Facebook. Love It, Hate it, or Love to Hate It?

Sorry for the long delay between episodes. One of us has been on the injured reserve list. Regardless. This week we are discussing one of our favorite topics: Facebook.

PAIGE'S TAKE

Why Facebook?

I don’t exactly remember when I got on Facebook, but it’s my Cousin Lisa’s fault that I started the descent into madness. She posted photos on the site and sent me a link. Of course I had to ‘join’ to view the photos of my cousins; and so began the tale of Paige and the social networking site.

At first I thought it would be an awesome way to share photos of our life: Our newly landscaped backyard & deck, the family trip to Disneyland, miscellaneous family photos in one spot. It was a bit addicting and motivating to scan the “old” photos (you know the ones on PAPER) and transfer the digital ones into neat little photo albums by category or event or type. It was like scrapbooking, but not.

And then I started looking for people I knew; it was a bit heady and mysterious at the same time. Is that REALLY the same person I went to high school with? That’s what became of my elementary friends? She married HIM? (Insert canned laughter here)

And THEN the friend requests started coming in. It’s amazing to me that 20-plus years after high school I have more people that I’m ‘friends’ with than I thought actually knew me in High School. (Yes, I’ll repeat I was shy and mostly a wall-flower type).

I joined a few ‘Groups’, “Liked” a few pages, tagged some photos, trolled photo albums and friend pages. I began playing some games, which of course required that I invite other people (with similar amounts of time to waste) to play in order to attain yet another level.

I began using phrases like “do you have a Facebook page?” and “I’ll see you on Facebook” frequently. It is actually quite scary. I think I’m using Facebook more than email. Facebook is the 2^nd screen I log into every morning – the first being email. Then I log into “Blogger” (another thing I would never have considered without friends suggesting I start my own Blog, and then putting up with my many questions) and read all the blogs I’m subscribed to.

Somewhere along the line I’ve picked up friends of friends – people I’ve never actually MET in real life – but through comments and beliefs (real or inferred) we’ve found a commonality. Some of them have been suggested to me through their friends and others just spontaneously asked to be my ‘friend’ (I’m sure most of them regret that decision every. day).

My friend “count” doesn’t matter to me, although I do occasionally, narcissistically check the number just to see how many people I’ve ticked off (see below) or encouraged or completely pulled the wool over. I notice that after I’ve been particularly mouthy regarding a subject (read: correctly opinionated) or outspoken about something that others find offensive (read: judgmental, bigoted and hateful), my friend count drops by about 5%. But then in another few days it bounces back again because people find me.

Facebook has been a spectacular way for me to connect with people that I feel I’ve known forever, but I haven’t been able to talk to regularly, due to growing up, geography and that pesky work-thing. I’ve caught up on other people grandkids, met new cousins and re-connected with people I haven’t seen in decades.

My grandson is almost 11 months old. Through the miracle of Facebook, my friends were able to enjoy the announcement of his coming, follow and support us all through his health challenges and the blessings and testimony of his heart transplant and recovery. I’ve been able to share photos with friends across the country so they can see my kitchen remodel from the first destructive hammer blow to the final (I’m still waiting) placement of the crown molding. We all share our fears, surprise, hopes and grumblings about weather, teenagers, child-rearing, spouses and schools.

And, then there’s the elephant in the room. There are those people who like to stay current on current affairs. I actually READ 5 newspapers (online) in addition to about 5 blogs each day; I like to try to actually back my opinions up with other opinions – not necessarily like mine. Some days the postings (links) are related and some days I’m all over the map. I love the banter and the conversations, and yes, the debates, that happen over the simplest of posts. And yes, sometimes, the comments go astray; people get mean or snitty and the conversation gets heated. I’ve “lost” a couple of friends that way. I’ve had people “hide” or “block” me because of it. but it’s pretty much me right now, so although I’m not going to bash you over the head at the baseball park or the school parking lot because of illegal immigration or same-sex marriages; I’m also not “making” you read what I post on my page; your choice.

Some of the best recipes I use on a regular basis I’ve gotten from FB friends. I’ve kept in touch with friends and friends of friends from all over the country (and outside of the US too) through the miracle of the internet. Want an instant audience to anything you do? Need an opinion about a peeve or a rant? Want to know if it’s snowing 2 miles from your house? How about passing on local news or helping a friend sell a house? Outraged about a specific policy or wondering where the best pizza in town is? Facebook is your place.

And you don’t even have to get dressed.

JEN'S TAKE

A few years ago a friend of mine sent me an invitation, via email, to join a site called "Facebook." Being appalled by the very idea of MySpace and assuming it was something similar, I balked. On first look it looked absurd. Why on EARTH would I need to be subjected to the thoughts of people I know, all day, every day? What on earth? But, my friend wanted me to play Scrabble with her, so I signed up. (BTW I suck at Scrabble, even though I am a wordsmith and a darn good one at that. Humble, too. Go figure.)

At first I didn't use it very often, if at all. This was back when the status-line was pre-filled in with "is" so you had to find a way to sum up what you were thinking using only that particular to-be verb. Boring, and limited. (Jennifer is boring. And limited. That would have worked. Heh.) So I'm pretty sure my status line read "is pregnant and tired" for 3 or so months. (Now, of course, the status box asks "What's on your mind" and can that REALLY be summed up in 320 characters? Not likely.)

After the 2008 election, the way I use Facebook completely changed. Just as some were outraged at the results of the 2004 election, I was outraged at the results in 08. And I wasn't going to silently sit by, either. However, being "stuck" in the house all day with three children under the age of 4, how would I keep myself from not sitting silently by? I know! Facebook!

Somewhere within election week of that year, I started using my Facebook page as a way to voice my opinion (to which I am entitled) of our new government, and the reactions of America, and just life in general. I've never been a shallow person and I've never much cared for giving everyone around me the lowdown on my day to day thoughts or what I had for breakfast. (Which is probably why I balked at FB in the beginning. WHO CARES??????) But darn it, I was ANGRY at what I knew, then, would happen to our country.

Since I began using Facebook in THAT regard I've had quite a bit of time to reflect on its purpose (in my life, and others') and popularity, and on how it can affect aspects of our life of which we may be unaware.

I have had a variety of experiences--some good, some bad-with Facebook in the three-plus years since I signed up. I have met people I would never have known otherwise due to Facebook posts. (Ahem. Paige.) I have furthered relationships with people that I never would have had the opportunity to further relationships with. (My brother is a good example of this. We rarely talked, which my mother found odd, mainly due to geography and/or time and/or lack of family functions and now we interact daily on Facebook. Which of course my mother finds odd. Go figure.) And I have had people that I have known for years walk out of my life (on Facebook and otherwise) simply for me having the audacity to speak my mind.

And I think that's where a lot of my feelings for and about Facebook come from. I view it as a conversational tool. Though I realize not everyone views it as such, I am NOT--repeat NOT a shallow person. Nor can I ever pretend to be. I simply do not want to bombard my Facebook friends (or "followers" depending upon whom you ask; more on that in a sec) with ridiculous posts about what I'm fixing for dinner (though sharing recipes is always good) or where my children and I went today or plan to go tomorrow (also not a bad idea as a whole, mind you, but it's not something I generally talk about in everyday conversation so why would I limit my FB posts to that regard?) or weather reports. (I have a Facebook friend who updates his page several times a day with weather reports. No, he is not a meteorologist. Yes, I am highly capable of looking up the weather myself. What I want to know about is his life. His thoughts, his feelings, his emotions. Because he is my FRIEND. Jeff Renner can tell me the weather, but I don't really care about Jeff Renner's personal life.

Anyway. Back to my use of Facebook. After the election shock and anger subsided (assuming, I suppose, that it has in fact subsided) I continued using Facebook on a daily basis to share whatever was "on my mind." And this, friends, is where I ran into (and still run into) trouble.

My mind is always "on". I'm always thinking about this or that or the other thing, and often this, that, or the other are too profound (in my humble opinion) not to share. Some--some would argue *most*--of my thoughts are not "safe" for "public" consumption. But I disagree with that line of thinking in regards to my line of thinking for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, my Facebook page is MY Facebook page. I have it set at the highest privacy setting possible. No one can see my page unless I confirm them as a friend. And I'm ultra picky about my friends. (Sometimes I'll take a chance on someone and be surprised…sometimes I'll give someone a chance and drop them if they don't meet my expectations.) But unless you're an idiot, it's pretty easy to NOT have your Facebook page be public knowledge. So in that regard, I'm not sure why it matters to any of my friends why I post the things I post (which I'm asked, daily). Perhaps it's because I am a deeply relational person (and, honestly, I feel the sum of our life experiences come from how we relate and to WHOM rather than what we do) but I feel that the only way to truly *know* someone and to *relate* to them is to know their innermost thoughts and how their mind works. Secondly, most of the time my thoughts aren't "safe" because they are what most people view as controversial. This is where a lot of the, well, controversy comes from on my Facebook page. I believe there are people on my page (can't speak for others) who don't understand the meaning of "debate" or even "discussion." I do post things that are debate and discussion-worthy, and sometimes a large number of comments appear in response. (I had one thread get over 160 comments, once. Most average 40-50.) So if someone disagrees with me and I give a rebuttal, I'm labeled "argumentative", "rude", or "bitchy" for continuing the discussion. This has actually happened! And I've had people say to me that I need to not post such controversial statements that allow my friends to corroborate my negativity. True story! (I fail to understand how I am responsible for the thoughts, feelings, actions, and re-actions of my friends. Please explain it to me, if you need to.) I've even had people say they can't be my Facebook friend, but will remain my real-life friend. Oddly, have I heard from these people since they removed themselves from my Facebook?

I suppose my bottom line is this: Facebook is my place to share what I *want* to share. I realize not everyone wants to hear what I have to say. That is their choice. Hide me, delete me, whatever. It's cool. (Although if you make a comment like "I'll still be your real life friend" upon deleting me, you'd damn well better pick up the phone and see how I'm doing every once in a while.) But it is MY place. And I will share what I want, when I want, how I want. And I am not responsible for the thoughts and opinions of my friends. All opinions are welcome on my page. But I reserve the right (as in any good discussion) to offer a rebuttal. I don’t, personally, delete people very often. If I do it is because they blatantly insult me, my children, or my friends. I have, once that I can think of, deleted someone to SAVE a real-life relationship (and it worked). Basically what I'm saying is this: just because I debate with you on Facebook doesn't make me like you less. Please give me the same courtesy if you call yourself my "friend."